Z5U MRC1 Audio

HDR-FX1000 / HVR-Z5 (2008). HVR-Z7 / HVR-S270 (2007). HDR-FX7 / HVR-V1 (2006). HDR-FX1 / HVR-Z1 (2004).
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seanxmlee
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Location: Palm Beach, Florida

Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by seanxmlee »

I am so thankful to have found this forum. I was getting really tired of trying to figure this out on my own :)

I have a Z5U and an MRC1 and I'm having a terrible experience with these two. I eventually got so sick of my tapes dropping frames, so i got the MRC1. Unfortunately, the MRC1 does the same thing after 12 minutes typically. Annoying. Also, the audio doesn't match at all, which I can of course adjust in post, but I'd rather not have to. Could someone please please tell me the best settings for both the camera and the MRC1 so I can ultimately avoid my never-ending headaches?

So, the recap: Audio is delayed during recording and Frames Drop (new clip starts).

I'll be forever grateful. I would love to get the most out of this camera, and right now I'm resorting to a DSLR, which I also love, but bought the Z5 for a reason.

Thanks so much in advance!
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Doughie
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by Doughie »

Hi Sean

welcome! i totally understand you want to get the most out of the new MRC1 module for your Z5.
I think that Adam on this board has personal experience of that module, so he may be able to help with that.

Are the problems you are having ALWAYS happening after 12minutes? Is it exactly 12minutes? Just trying to narrow down the possibilities as to precisely what the issue is.

thanks
Doughie
acgold7
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by acgold7 »

The 12 minute thing means you are not using the ru_util software to stitch the clips together in one seamless piece. You must use the software that came with your unit to import the clips and piece them together properly or you will get the dropped frames as FAT32 can't handle the long clips, and always breaks them into 2GB chunks.

I've never had an audio sync problem with mine so not sure what the issue is exactly. Can you describe in more detail? The issue may go away once you begin importing properly.

If you don't have the CD that came with the MRC unit, you can DL the ru_util software from the web. Make sure you get v 1.1.

Another thought: If you didn't buy your MRC recently, new, you might want to check to see that it has the latest firmware. There was an update a while back and while I don't think it had anything to do with audio sync issues, with Sony you never know.

Further thoughts: The more I think about it, the more I think the sync issue is also about using the ru_util software, or rather not using it, for importing. When you record to disk-based formats, the unit (I'm pretty sure) records a whole cluster of files, not really like the streaming file that would have been recorded to tape if you'd been doing that. Some of these files tell how to reconstruct the file and some are about synching audio to video and all that stuff, if I'm understanding it all correctly. The Sony utility takes these files and reconstructs it all together so it all makes sense. I think if you just grab what looks like the video file(s) from the card and drag it/them into your editor you are asking for trouble.

What NLE are you using?
Adam
seanxmlee
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by seanxmlee »

I am very appreciative of the replies, thank you so much for taking the time.
I am using Final Cut Pro. I was a huge fan of 7, but have since switched to 10, which has turned out to be a nightmare to some degree while a bit of a pleasure on other hands.
I checked my software and firmware that came with the MRC1, which was bought 1.5 years ago, and it has the proper plugins, but sadly they're only for FCP7.
Basically, on my macs, what I do is load my CF files and convert them through either a cheap program called Media Converter, and through Pavtube MTS M2TS Converter. That at least puts the file into a raw .mov format for easier editing. I then take those files and import them directly into my events.
I'm not sure if this is where it is messing with the audio or not (during the conversion), but something weird is going on. I format all my CF's directly with the MRC1 to be sure they're in the proper format.
The frames don't drop at any consistent time. Most often, they drop at 12 - 13 minutes, but some will go as long as 22 or 23 minutes before it starts a new clip (even with consecutive recording). I am sew the clips together, but typically 3-4 frames were lost in that clip changeover.
I film a lot of corporate educational stuff and I hate not being able to rely on my camera...

Again, thank you so much for the advice. If you have anything to add that you think could be helpful, please let me know.

The firmware is something I'll have to look further into, but I fear that Sony and Mac compatibility might stand in my way there. I could certainly be wrong.

Thank you again.
Sean
acgold7
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by acgold7 »

If you are not using the Sony utility it's doubtful they'll stitch together correctly. Pages 16-19 of your MRC manual.

Don't blame the camera if you are not following their recommended procedure. Both the cam and the recorder are completely reliable if you follow the instructions. FCP X is widely regarded as a nightmare indeed, which is why people switched in droves to Premiere when it came out. But what you are doing is only making a bad situation worse. Basically you are doing everything wrong and virtually assuring nothing will work. You are putting apple juice into your gas tank and then complaining your car won't drive.

When HDV files are broken into pieces, later sections lose track of the header information that keeps track of sync and time code information that is necessary to reconstruct your files, which is why you'd have no problem reading audio or TC info from tape but it wouldn't work from CF card. The Sony utility fixes this and it's the only utility that does so reliably.

Just use the tools that came with your gear, read the manual and follow the instructions. Everything will be fine.

I have four Z5s and seven MRCs that I bought in November 2009 and have shot thousands of hours with them, and have never once had a problem of this nature with any of them (although I have had problems with the tape deck section of one of the Z5s). The only thing I do differently is I don't use the MRC for transferring to the PC -- I use an external FW800 reader directly into the PC so transfers are much faster, by the order of 10x or so.
Adam
seanxmlee
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by seanxmlee »

Adam,

Thanks for getting back to me. I completely understand where you're coming from. I guess I am / was just fixed on finding a solution that would allow me to continue using FCP instead of having to switch over to another editing platform. I understand what you're saying though, and again, thank you.
I'll give Premier a go and see how well the transition over goes for me.

Just a small question to recap then... you're saying the clip splitting on the MRC is ok then and that Sony's software will actually stitch it together for me, is that correct?

Best,
Sean
numedia
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by numedia »

I have captured footage from my Z5 only once (I just got it) but it was broken into 'chunks' and the only time that has occurred in the past (VX-2100) was dropping a frame. I'm not using the MRC1, I'm capturing with tape, so is that a firmware issue with the camera or a menu setting?
acgold7
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by acgold7 »

If it's happening when capturing from tape, then it's a dropout and it's why people are moving away from tape. Dropouts are far more serious an issue when using HDV tape than DV tape because you can lose up to half a second because of the way it is compressed. If all is working normally with the Z5, you should theoretically be able to capture an entire hour of tape without interruption (as I generally was able to do when I was shooting tape with it). That's assuming you are talking about a single take -- if it was several scenes then of course it would be broken into separate files, one for each start/stop of the REC button.

The MRC insists that the CF cards be formatted as FAT32, which has a 2GB (or 4GB, depending upon who you talk to) file size limitation. So all files can be no bigger than that and any scenes that run longer will be broken into chunks. The ru_util capture utility puts these chunks back together seamlessly as you transfer to your PC or Mac and does so flawlessly so your editor never sees where they were divided. At least it is supposed to and has always done so for me.

But if you just drag the files from the card into your Mac or PC and butt them together -- even in Premiere -- there will be a gap of at least one frame and they will never merge perfectly.

You should still be able to use FCP with it. Try it. It's a simple little utility that doesn't even need to be installed -- it just sits on your desktop until you fire it up. You select the files on the card, it sees them, puts them back together with all the header info and puts them where you tell it to. Then you import the reconstructed files into your editor and away you go. After they are reconstructed is when you would convert to MOV if you want.

If for some reason you didn't get it or can't find it, send me your email and I'll send it to you. It's tiny.
Adam
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Stephan
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Re: Z5U MRC1 Audio

Post by Stephan »

seanxmlee wrote:I guess I am / was just fixed on finding a solution that would allow me to continue using FCP instead of having to switch over to another editing platform.
Sean,

In contrast with Adam, I must say I'm reasonably happy with FCP X considering the much lower price over here compared to Premiere (damn Adobe) :-/

Try this utility: ClipWrap from Divergent Media, I used it to rewrap into QuickTime (not reencode, I'm saying just rewrap!) some HDV files (works equally with AVCHD) that had been captured on a PC in order to use them on my iMac. The FAQ says "ClipWrap supports large files that have been split due to file size limitations, which is common with harddisk recorders or AVCHD cameras. If you have footage that has been split, ClipWrap automatically detects these spanned clips and will recombine them into a single seamless QuickTime movie". I haven't encountered that long-file limitation myself, so I can't testify really. But it's an inexpensive utility, worth checking.

Cheers.
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