Cameras for Marketing Business

How to shoot best high-definition video in various specific situations, regardless of camcorder model. Accessories: tripods, stabilizers, lights...
rebekahlmueller
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Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by rebekahlmueller »

Hello!

I work for a company that does B2B marketing. We host several conferences/seminars and would like to record these and also client testimonials for our website. The current camera we have, a Sony Super Steady Shot HDR-SR10 is just not cutting it in terms of audio. I know it is standard to use mics for far away shots, such as conferences and seminars, if you are trying to get quality audio of the disucssion. As it is mostly our sales team that travels to the conferences, it would be too complicated for them to have to worry about setting up mics and making sure they work before the presentations. Is there a good HD camera out there that has great built in mics? If we do have a camera with sensitive mics, would this mean we would most likely hear the audience coughing or moving louder than the speakers? We want to use these videos for youtube, blog, website, etc. They will most likely not be on a TV. Please provide with some camera comparisions including prices. Thank you!
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by acgold7 »

You can never get decent audio with a mic mounted on a cam, and the internal mics on cams -- even the best ones -- can never be as good as a quality external mic. Yes, you will always have audience noise overwhelming the sound from your subjects if the mic is at the back of the room.

There is no such thing as a "zoom lens" in audio. Microphones must be within 18 inches or so of the speakers' mouths for decent audio, unless you use the multi-thousand dollar parabolic mics that the NFL uses. Best solution is a couple of wireless lavs to send audio to your cam. Or you could mount a quality external audio recorder on a tripod or mic stand right in front of the speakers and then mix the sound in editing.

The shotgun mics you see mounted on professional ENG rigs are for shoulder-mounted field use and the shooter (and therefore the mic) is always within a couple feet of the interviewee.

Sorry, but you can't argue with physics.
Adam
rebekahlmueller
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by rebekahlmueller »

Someone suggested this mic: Sony ECM-HGZ1

Any experience using a shot-gun mic?
rebekahlmueller
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by rebekahlmueller »

I should also mention that we'll most likely end up buying a different camcorder, so if there is a better quality camcorder with shotgun mic, please recommend. We use Final Cut Pro to edit.
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Doughie
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by Doughie »

rebekahlmueller wrote:. Is there a good HD camera out there that has great built in mics?
In short, no.

I am in 100% agreement with my colleague acgold7 on this.

THE Golden No.1 of recording good audio "Get the mic closer". Thats it !

Another oft-quoted saying is [paraphrased etc] "a 10dollar mic, placed 12inches away from the sound, will sound better than a 5000dollar mic placed 10feet away from the sound."

There is no such thing as a real "zoom mic" or one that will get quality sound from far away. Some people think a shotgun mic (has a more focussed pick-up area) will 'magically' zoom you closer. it won't ! all it does is help reduce (to a degree) sound from sources located to the side and (a bit) to the rear. So it's polar pattern is biased towards sounds which it is pointed at, but it will STILL pick up sound from all around, just attentuated from the sides especially. If you are pointing a shotgun mic at a speaker 10 or 20feet away (thats not very far) but somebody else is talking or coughing etc 3 or 4 feet away to your side, it won't sound good. You MUST get the mic closer.... by one of the following means....

you need to use (prob..) condenser mics (or a dynamic mic will be fine too if it's REALLY close, like 1 or 2 inches away) , close to the sound-source (12-18inches is good), and connect them into a separate audio recorder, like a Zoom H4N, or Zoom H1, or any number of digital audio recorders from sony, Olympus, or lots of other companies, and synch the sound up in post.
OR
Use a shotgun mic or cardioid mic and connect it via a long XLR-lead to the camera (Assuming the camera has XLR-audiobox. You can buy a Beachtek or JuicedLink audio XLR box if needs be for almost any camcorder).
OR
use a lavalier condenser / shotgun/ cardioid mic and use a UHF wireless trasmitter setup that will cost around US$800 (transmitter, receiver, included lav mic(s) etc.

I or several others here can make specific product recommendations and provide links to items you will need to buy. You will be amazed, i can guarantee at how much better the sound will be when the mic is placed within a foot or two. Then it's just a matter of running a long XLR-cable back to an XLR-box OR use a wireless system (there's plenty of plug-on transmitters that work great - i can provide specifics if you want).
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by acgold7 »

Rebekah, it looks like you didn't read anything I said in my first response, or more likely, you just don't believe me. The Sony mic you list is a fine little mic for what it is, but it won't help you. Nothing will if it's mounted on the cam.

It has nothing to do with the cam itself. It would do you no good if I were to tell you that the FX7 has one of the best internal mics around and does a remarkable job, because for what you are trying to do it will still sound really horrible. Any time you put a camera far enough away to capture the entire panel discussion, you will be too far away to get good sound from a mic on the cam. Any mic.

It sounds to me like you are trying to get professional results without doing any work, and I think we all know that is pretty unlikely.

Really, the cheapest and easiest solution is to get a Zoom H4n with a short mic stand. The Zoom comes with a mic stand adapter and can run on batteries using its internal mics. Place this on the table in front of your speakers and sync in post. Nothing to learn how to do except turn it on or off and insert/remove an SD card.

If you must use an on-cam mic, the Sony NX5 comes with a very good shotgun mic as well as an excellent internal mic. It's about $4,000 at B&H.

If you just want a better mic to plug into a little consumer cam, consider the Rode VideoMic. You will need a shoe adapter to attach it to the cam. If you get a pro cam that will take a pro mic, get the Rode NTG2. But don't take from these recommendations that I'm saying you will get good sound. You won't. It will just be a little less horrible.
Adam
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Doughie
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by Doughie »

Doughie wrote:
rebekahlmueller wrote:THE Golden No.1 of recording good audio "Get the mic closer". Thats it !
OK to demonstrate my point i remembered a *perfect* demo video of this from 2006.... I've been hunting it down and just found it and here it is :

Plug headphones, ear-buds, iphone ear-buds, ANY headphones into your PC or laptop and listen to this, especially the bit from 2mins 25seconds and on :
http://www.youtube.com/user/dvestore#p/u/41/ETX_nBG9zvU

That is a very simple demo of how it sounds from across a room with built-in camera mics and then, the HUGE difference when you use a mic close to the person speaking. Please do use headphones for listening - you can only really here this stuff well with headphones.

Again, the key point here is NOT about the camcorder mics or the Rode mic in use. It is just demonstrating that *proximity* to the sound source is the Golden Thing in audio recording.


But anyway .... products used .... the mic used in that video is the Rode NT3 which is a cardioid mic (condenser), and is US$269 at well-known New york store. You don't have to go wireless, you can just buy a long XLR cable, and stick your Sony SR11 onto a Beachtek box, and connect it via an XLR cable (this one is 50feet long which should be more than enough for most things),

- and that's about it.



You will get great sound and in this way you avoid the expense of wireless audio (although that is more flexible for certain things, especially if the cam-op is moving or the speaker is handholding the mic and is moving). Wireless will give everyone more freedom to move, but if the speaker is static and the camera is going to be static or fairly static, just use an XLR cable. - they're designed to work with long cable lengths. The Beachtek box will allow you to plug the XLr cable into it and you have level controls on that. Your videos will sound professional and you will be amazed at the difference.

you don't have to use a pricey condenser mic - you could use a dynamic mic like the legendary SM58 for US$99 although the speaker WILL need to be trained-enough to keep mouth very close to the mic-head at all times. Shure SM58 has been used in around 184,564,377 stage performances globally. - this week.
rebekahlmueller
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by rebekahlmueller »

Adam,
I did read your message. Sorry if it came off as not. I have posted this message on several video forums in order to gather as much information as possible. My short response with asking about the shotgun mic was because I had just received a reply from another forum suggesting that and wanted to recieve your opinions on it. As for lavs, I have used them in the past. I am a recent college grad with experience mostly in post production so my experience with mics is the few times I've used them or in group settings. As I stated in my original post, these need to be user friendly with people who have absolutely no experience using video equipment outside of personal use. As I am a recent addition to this company and an entry level member, I am not in the budget to travel to the conferences to handle this equipment. I, and I assume anyone who has experience slightly in videomaking, understand that the closer the mic the better the sound. But as we all know, if we're working for a client or any situation where we lack all control of the production, when the conditions are not ideal, compromises have to be made with audio or video quality to get the job done in the best manner possible. My company wants to be able to keep these productions inhouse due to cost. I was put in charge of organizing equipment, updating software, choosing equipment, etc for these productions and because I know that I am not an expert (especially when comparing products in terms of budgetary concerns vs quality), I am turning to multiple forums. I've tried searching for equipment on my own on sites such as bhphotovideo.com, which I have used in the past. I've ordered stuff before for personal use that I ended up not being happy with, which is why I am turning to forums to get recommendations from those with much more experience than I, especially since mine is mostly postproduction. I'll definitely suggest the equipment you all have recommended to my bosses. From those you have listed, which would you say is most user friendly for those who are unexperienced? I'm hoping that I'll be in the budget next year so I can handle the production myself, but until then, I need to find a solution for someone else.
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Doughie
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by Doughie »

rebekahlmueller wrote: From those you have listed, which would you say is most user friendly for those who are unexperienced?
I would say the simplest solution is :

IF the mic is going to be for just one person (i.e. one speaker) and they don't mind having a cable connected to it, i would use this : Sennheiser MD42 omnidirectional reporters mic :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4 ... _MD42.html

If the mic is needed to be picking up several different people, then i would perhaps lean towards a condenser mic like the Rode NT3 i mentioned earlier :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/2 ... e_NT3.html

XLR-audio-box to connect to camera :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6 ... order.html

XLR cable to connect mic to XLR-audio-box on camera(this one is 50feet long which should be more than enough for most things) :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6 ... le_to.html

If your budget allows it, then get a Sennheiser G3 wireless kit like this one. It's around US$800 :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6 ... eries.html
that will eliminate need for a cable. You attach the plugon to the Sennheiser MD42 (or whatever mic you are using) and it transmits a signal back to the camera via the Sennheiser G3 wireless kit and that gives you freedom from the cable.

Also i would have the camera on a good tripod, with a good fluid head (thats a whole 'nother thread..), and get the camera closer to the speakers so that you are not running too much telephoto on the lens (can induce shake and will pick up any vibration) and also the further you are away, there is more chance of someone walking in-shot and also the zoom lens will have a smaller aperture at the tele end of the range.

Get camera closer, put on good tripod, use a smooth fluid head, DON'T zoom the camera during recording if you can possibly help it (looks v amateur), and pan around as little as possible. Experiment with exposure modes beforehand at each venue.

Sound : you absolutely need to have a mic (whether dynamic or condenser) within a foot or foot-and-a-half of the speakers. Connect via XLR cable (need Beacktek box or JuicedLink box on camera) or connect wirelessly via the Sennheiser G3 kit or the Sony UWP kit.

In fact Sony have a mic plus transmitter kit that may make perfect sense :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5 ... phone.html
Last edited by Doughie on 20 Oct 2010 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: broken URL's, fixed.
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Stephan
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Re: Cameras for Marketing Business

Post by Stephan »

I like Adam's suggestion of using a Zoom H4n. I've never used one of those, wouldn't it be easier to set up on location at the seminars?

But of course it would create significant more work in post to synchronize audio - as the cam's onboard mic, with all its shortcomings, would only be used to get a reference for audio (to be replaced in post by the Zoom's recordings).
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